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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 6 July 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 217

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: FAQ Additions
         2. Re: More questions about TNE
         3. Re: More questions about TNE
         4. various topics
         5. Re: Miscellaneous thoughts
         6. Re: Miscellaneous thoughts
         7. Re: Risk Assessment
         8. Re: Relative Sizes
         9. Temporary Sign-off
        10. Hand Computers (was Re: Miscellaneous thoughts)
        11. Re: Re: More questions about TNE
        12. Alien Modules
        13. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #216
        14. unsubscribe
        15. Re: various topics
        16. Re: Hand Computers
        17. Re: Alien Modules

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 07:04:49 -0700
Subject: Re: FAQ Additions

James Dempsey wrote:
> 
>It is good to see that the two great flame wars have once again died 
>down to the general 3 degrees background radiation level. We should get 
>a description together of the major conclusions and points of contention 
>for each 'discussion' to add to the FAQ. (I feel a bit like a butterfly 
>collector here - hmm, what a lovely specimen of that rare and...)

They have not died down.  Everyone's still recovering from their 4th of 
July hangovers.  Actually I'm still recovering from my 1st of July 
hangover, least anyone accuse me of being an unpatriotic Canadian.

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 07:30:08 -0800
Subject: Re: More questions about TNE

On  5 Jul 96 at 13:13, Derek Stanley spewed:

> Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> > Perhaps the best approach might be a dual approach.  Give a little
> > bit of detail in something like the upcoming Alien volume...and give
> > exhaustive detail on the major races in future supplements.  Some
> > people like the detail of Rats & Cats or Bogs & Dogs, apparently you
> > don't...
> 
> See this is where you're wrong.  I liked the detail, I didn't like the 
> way it was presented.  Perhaps it was because I was in university at the 
> time and I hated reading text books.  I think that if you're going to 
> present material that is that serious you have to do something to lighten 
> it up.  Humerous stories, things that happened when they were first 

I grant you that...  A few more sidebars, a few more 1st person 
experiences...  Personal opinion, remembering my days in college 
back in the middle ages, having to read textbooks turned me off of 
reading anything heavier than the comics for about 2 years after I 
finished college.  But I grant you...more examples, more first person 
narrative, a less dry writing style (not necessarily as over the top as 
Sneaks & Geeks).  I found it an interesting read, but I can see where 
somebody might find it dry reading...

On the other hand, Sneaks and Geeks seemed to be more about telling 
stupid jokes than describing aliens, so I think somewhere in the 
middle is probably best...

> When I went to university I had a number of Prof's.  Some, the ones who 

<snip>

I can understand where you're coming from with the above...

> I think the only publication that should never have been put out was 
> "Secret of the Ancients."  But that's a personal thing that involved 
> destroying a really good traveller campaign.

I think it was nice for Marc to actually flesh out the mystery of the 
Ancients, but I have to admit that I've never run this 1 with the 
group, and probably never will...  I could see where it could wreak 
havoc with an existing campaign if you tried to run it well into the 
campaign (particularly if your campaign includes a lot of mysteries 
re. the Ancients)...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 07:30:08 -0800
Subject: Re: More questions about TNE

On  5 Jul 96 at 14:28, Joe Walsh spewed:

> Oh, God, no!  We don't want people getting outside of the published areas 
> of the game setting!  Then people would stop buying our products!  That 
> would be horrid! 

Unless of course, somebody decided not to be so worried about 
fleshing out particular areas of the map, and developed a host of 
different settings...oops...that's IG's idea.  :-)

> Ugh.  Instead of responding to the market and providing the desired 
> material, they'd rather discourage people from pursuing a legitimate use 
> of the far future setting.  Sigh.  I'm sorry to hear that was their policy.

Not as sorry as they were in the long run, one would suspect.  :-(

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: eclipse@ultranet.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 10:49:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: various topics

Joe writes:
>I'll design an aging table for those years.  It will have one Interval, 
>and the roll to avoid aging effects will be 13+.  
   One of the worlds designed by a member of the TNE-Pocket list included
a world with a tainted atmosphere.  When the collapse took out the filter
factory, the population didn't die off.  They just started dying much younger.
Death usually occured around age 30 due to massive lung failure.

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) write:
>I suspect that the "coast guard" is *part* of the Navy, much like the
>Army Air Corp used to be part of the Army. They'd have the right to go
>after things clear down to the limit of planetary sovreignty, and
>possibly beyond. (Sort of like how both the Sheriff's department and
>the Coast Guard *both* patrol the Willamette and the Columbia).

  The US Coast Guard is technically part of the Transportation Department.
It is *transferred* to the DoD in time of war.  It can also 'loan' units
to the US Navy for limited engagements.  Coast Guard units saw action in
Viet Nam.  They they provided a 'Blue Water' Navy with experience in coastal
and river actions.  This included lessons in how to board and search small
vessels.  US Coast Guard units again saw service prior to the Gulf War.  
Once again, they provided instruction in how to board and search vessels 
for hidden contraban.


>So just as Coast Guard units served in Vietnam and the Gulf, the
>Imperial Navy would grab such units as they might need for system
>defense and patrolling duties for the units normally assigned to such
>things. 
  The Sector Admiral sez "Go There!", and you go!  Such smaller vessels
could easily be pressed into fleet service as tenders, scouts, and of
course, boarding and searching smaller vessels.  You don't send your 
Battleship over to investigate a trader that may be packed to the airlocks
with nuclear warheads, just waiting for a capital ship to get close...

>I expect that there'd be some intense rivalry between the two halves of
>the Navy. Both would look down on the other side. 
  Of course.  The local patrol units would see themselves as doing "The Real
Work", protecting the citizens.  They would probably see more action than
a 'Ship of the Line', except during war.  
  The Captital Ship units would view the 'coastal' units as 'kids playing
around in toy boats.'

On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Matthew Harelick wrote:
> Is it possible to play TNE and not use the virus? What I mean by possible is
> is it possible to use the system without too many modifications? 
   Of the top of my head, sure.  The Rebellion got really, really nasty.
Several factions said, "If I can't have it, neither can you."  Then the various
alien groups, Vargr, Aslan, K'Kree, smelled blood and attacked.  The various 
post Imperium groups decided that they wanted the aliens having it even less,
so they joined forces just long enough to attack the invaders.  Major butt
kicking took place *all over*.  All sides fought till they were forced
to throw bags of BBs out their airlocks in path of attacking ships. :-)
- --------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com - Mark Urbin
#insert <standard_disclaimer.h>
http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- --------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 06 Jul 1996 10:59:06 GMT
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous thoughts

>4)  Is it just me, or does it seem that a lot of skills were lost in only 
>70 years?  The book talks about societies that are comprised of people 
>unable to read and write.  Literacy is that easy to loose?  Hmmm.

That's what happens when you forget books and use hand computers, which
require a power source!

Seriously, one of the problems I have with 'online' resources is that I
haven't found a decent reader that I can curl up with beside a campfire.  Too
fragile, battery life too short, etc.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 11:17:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous thoughts

On 6 Jul 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> >4)  Is it just me, or does it seem that a lot of skills were lost in only 
> >70 years?  The book talks about societies that are comprised of people 
> >unable to read and write.  Literacy is that easy to loose?  Hmmm.
> 
> That's what happens when you forget books and use hand computers, which
> require a power source!

True..

> Seriously, one of the problems I have with 'online' resources is that I
> haven't found a decent reader that I can curl up with beside a campfire.  Too
> fragile, battery life too short, etc.

True again.  This gets off the topic of the effects of the collapse, but 
I think in the future computers for such purposes will better emulate 
their non-virtual counterparts.  Computers for use in getting 
white-collar work done (ie, work at a desk) have come to emulate the desk 
to some degree.  In the future, especially the Far Future, I believe 
there will be computers available that will better emulate the 
human-magazine and human-book interfaces.  That's the only way I can see 
them replacing books and magazines, anyway.

"Hand Computers" as described in Traveller just won't work for that.  
Maybe IG or someone should come up with a pseudo-design for such a thing 
and include it in the Catalog or a JTAS article.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 06 Jul 1996 12:35:01 GMT
Subject: Re: Risk Assessment

>It's also likely that an active, expanding society is going to be a lot
>less "safety at any cost" than our current society. 

Actually, we aren't really obsessed with safety at any cost.  Just look at
the daily traffic carnage!  Look at how people react when lower speed limits
are enforced (which _do_ reduce injuries when everyone obeys them).  Look at
th reaction to Alar, lead miniature figures, BT...

People tend to get worried about big splashy disasters, or 'hazards' that
some national TV reporter has chosen to publicize.  The day-to-day hazards
are ignored (or even encouraged).

I would say that we are going through an avoidance of responsibility phase. 
(At least, I _hope_ it's a phase).  Why else would a pack-a-day smoker
campaign against nuclear power?

If you like, I'll try to dig up some material on relative risks.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 06 Jul 1996 12:45:18 GMT
Subject: Re: Relative Sizes

This also applies to worlds.

I use several sizes of world map.  Every hex is 1000 km, and the number of
hexes along a triangle is the planet's UWP size digit.  Players can really
tell how much bigger than a size 7 world a size 10 world is (twice the
surface area).  


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 06 Jul 1996 12:57:58 GMT
Subject: Temporary Sign-off

Like David, I'm signing off for a while: to be precise, for one month.  I may
or may not be able to access this account over the Internet, but will not
have time to keep up with all the mail using my father's internet service (4
hours a month).

If you desperately want to give me large amounts of money, I can be reached
through dad's account: michael_prior@sunshine.net

If you're in BC, maybe we can have a game.  I'll be visiting my newly retired
parents in Sechelt, about 1.5 hours north of Vancouver.  (Next town north of
Gibson, for those of you old enough to remember The Beachcombers.)

I'm bringing along a borrowed laptop and some manuals.  Hope to have some
software completed by the time I return: "Worldbuilder" and "FFS Design".

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 13:09:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Hand Computers (was Re: Miscellaneous thoughts)

High tech hand computers in my Imperium are usually tablet like, voice and
touch activated things, very much like a notebook (paper notebook, not
computer notebood ;) ).  They are very versatile and can contain enourmous
amounts of data.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 06 Jul 1996 13:02:22 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: More questions about TNE

>Aliens of the Rim wasn't one of 
>the better TNE supplements though.  A lot of what was written 
>contraadicted other sources on the Hivers

Actually, I thought it did a good job of _plugging_ some of the holes in the
original Hivers module.  

------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 12:47:31 -0800
Subject: Alien Modules

Derek Stanley didst sputter the following:
>I think aliens have a great potential for comedy, of course when I gm we
>usually spend 1/4 of time with tears rolling out of our eyes from
>laughing.  But beyond that aliens should never be humans in funny suits,
>they're, well, alien.  But if you can't publish a book with a little
>humour in it people are taking it to serously.  I've read the Digest
>Group Publications, "MT Vilani and Vargr" module, I don't know if there's
>an earlier source book on this material but really it's so dry and stale,
>I'd have looked at the author and said, nice try, the deatils are there
>but can't you make it more interesting and less like a text book?

There is a big difference between the useful, insightful, and useable alien
modules of DGP, and the slapstick, irreverant, slap in the face of GDW's
_H&I_.

>There's lots of great infomation contained within these pages but it's so
>friggin boring that you need someone to duct tape you to a chair and keep
>turning the pages to continue reading it.  I like lots of information but
>make it interesting at least.

I had a player who bought me a copy of H&I so he could play hivers. (He'd
encountered some NPC hivers, and liked what he saw). He read through H&I,
and found that he didn't have any real feel for hivers from it... and he
then read Alien Module _: Hivers (too lazy to look up the # right now)and
understood what it meant to be a hiver. My other players who have read both
have had the same problem. All of them think the CT alien modules were a
little dry. Those who've read H&I and Hivers find contradictions.

***All my players were offended by the San*claws religion of the Ithklur...
it turned out to be just too "non-travelleresque" for my group. ***

Alines need to at least feel like they are more than men in suits. Those
who can't make an alien feel like more than a man in suit don't get to play
one. Even part vilani characters require the player to read the player's
section of V&V, if they are to play in my games. It adds to the
versimilitude of the game. Something the later GDW attempts at aliens
lacks. The Ithklur concept was ok, but the handling, symbology, and bad
puns did no favors for traveller. Even the old JTAS article "Contact:
Virush" had more on how to play a virush than H&I had for EITHER.

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 96 22:42 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #216

In-Reply-To: <199607061200.IAA13445@NS.MPGN.COM>

In message , owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM said:
> From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996
> 17:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Coast Guard
> On Fri, 5 Jul 1996, Les Howie wrote:
>> Charles Pratt wrote
>>  
>> Question: Are there orbital navaids in traveller? Who maintains them --
>> planetary authorities (Orbit Guard?), Starport Authorities?.  Also, in
>> Canada (IIRC) Coast Guard coordinates search and rescue for Canada's SAR
>> areas, even if other resourses (Navy, Merchant Ships, etc.) do the actual
>> rescue.
>  
> IMHO there would have to be, there just hasn't been anything written about
> them.

Navaids would be maintained by the IISS and/or local authorities. SAR,
probably system navy (SDBs are perfect).


                      --------=====OOO=====--------
Andrew Boulton                         http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."

------------------------------

From: "Scott L. Kalkwarf" <toraka@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 17:00:54 -0500
Subject: unsubscribe

unsubscribe traveller-digest

------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 16:44:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: various topics

On Sat, 6 Jul 1996, Mark Urbin wrote:

> Joe writes:
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) write:
> >I suspect that the "coast guard" is *part* of the Navy, much like the
> >Army Air Corp used to be part of the Army. They'd have the right to go
> >after things clear down to the limit of planetary sovreignty, and
> >possibly beyond. (Sort of like how both the Sheriff's department and
> >the Coast Guard *both* patrol the Willamette and the Columbia).
>
>   The US Coast Guard is technically part of the Transportation Department.
> It is *transferred* to the DoD in time of war.  It can also 'loan' units
> to the US Navy for limited engagements.  Coast Guard units saw action in
> Viet Nam.  They they provided a 'Blue Water' Navy with experience in coastal
> and river actions.  This included lessons in how to board and search small
> vessels.  US Coast Guard units again saw service prior to the Gulf War.
> Once again, they provided instruction in how to board and search vessels
> for hidden contraban.

> >I expect that there'd be some intense rivalry between the two halves of
> >the Navy. Both would look down on the other side.
>   Of course.  The local patrol units would see themselves as doing "The Real
> Work", protecting the citizens.  They would probably see more action than
> a 'Ship of the Line', except during war.
>   The Captital Ship units would view the 'coastal' units as 'kids playing
> around in toy boats.'

About the two ideas above...From my friends who are/have been in the Navy
and the Coast Guard, Navy ships are required to have Coast Guard liason
officers who conduct all boarding/search and seizure type stuff, because
the're the ones who have the authority to do so.  The navy stops the
vessels, and the Coasties go aboard it.

Also, I haven't seen much animosity between the two services from the
people I know in them.  The Navy and the Coast Guard simply perform
different functions, and that's how all the people I've talked to see it
(I'm researching both, with the intent of joining one or the other).

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
   "And on the eighth day, the Army Corps of Engineers changed everything."


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 21:14:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Hand Computers

On Sat, 6 Jul 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:

> High tech hand computers in my Imperium are usually tablet like, voice and
> touch activated things, very much like a notebook (paper notebook, not
> computer notebood ;) ).  They are very versatile and can contain enourmous
> amounts of data.

Cool!  It'd be neat to have a fully-fleshed-out hand computer such as 
this for use in the game.  I'm sure you know all about them, but I'd like 
to hear more so I can add your idea to my Imperium! :) (If IG doesn't do 
something like this, perhaps you could write a JTAS article?)

Are they notebook-sized, and you do something similar to flipping a 
page (perhaps, touching the upper-right-hand corner?) to get it to 
display the next page?  Or do you say, "flip page?"  

Would you say the display is very much like ink-and-paper in the way it 
looks, or is it more like a LCD?  

Can they download information from afar, or do they need a physical link 
to the computer being accessed?  If the former, can they be used as 
communicators?  Can you link them together into a temporary network, 
allowing every user to see what is on some sort of shared display, which 
they can all interact with?  What sort of range do they have?

Are they expandable at all?  Can you hook in stadard sensors so they 
become multi-purpose for exploration parties, for instance?  Any other 
optional add-ons (ie, translation programs)?

Of course, it'd be nice to have the exact weight and dimensions (plus, 
weight dimensions and price of optional add-ons, if any).

Geez, I'm just full of questions tonight! :)  Sorry if I'm overwhelming 
you, but I think this is a technology which can be explored a lot 
more...even without a lot of hand-waving over how things work.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 21:20:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Alien Modules

On Sat, 6 Jul 1996, William F. Hostman wrote:

> I had a player who bought me a copy of H&I so he could play hivers. (He'd

You've got nice players. :)  No player ever bought me a single supplement 
- - and only occasionally bought their own copies of the player information 
(ie, the MT player's manual).

> encountered some NPC hivers, and liked what he saw). He read through H&I,
> and found that he didn't have any real feel for hivers from it... and he
> then read Alien Module _: Hivers (too lazy to look up the # right now)and
> understood what it meant to be a hiver. My other players who have read both
> have had the same problem. All of them think the CT alien modules were a
> little dry. Those who've read H&I and Hivers find contradictions.

I've never read H&I, but I have read the CT stuff and the MT stuff 
(though I no longer own the MT/DGP stuff).  Personally, I'd like to see 
somethin along the lines of the CT Alien Modules, but with much more 
information.  As for writing style, making it come alive would be nice.  
I don't mean the copious use of humor.  I mean that it would be nice to 
have some anecdotes from humans who have experience with the race, as 
well as some stuff written from the perspective of the race in question.


> ***All my players were offended by the San*claws religion of the Ithklur...
> it turned out to be just too "non-travelleresque" for my group. ***

They were offended by the fact that religion was included, or were they 
offended by the way the religion was treated in the book?

> Alines need to at least feel like they are more than men in suits. Those
> who can't make an alien feel like more than a man in suit don't get to play
> one. Even part vilani characters require the player to read the player's
> section of V&V, if they are to play in my games. It adds to the
> versimilitude of the game. Something the later GDW attempts at aliens

I completely agree with what you re saying here.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #217
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